50 50 distribution
once the front was lowered slightly more then the rear ( as with the r5 turbo1)!My other favorites were my Renault 5 GT turbo! The song, produced by Soul Professa, features fellow American rappers Snoop Dogg and Young Jeezy. If you were right (and you’re most definitely NOT) why haven’t other automakers developed cars with engines behind the rear axle??? fifty fifty right? And now it is an iconic design/brand, so they’re sticking with it as their flagship (after trying to phase it out and replace it with the front-engined, water-cooled, V8-powered 928 in the 80’s-90’s). I am trying to understand why my car handles so poorly. Cheers, Scott, I think there is a point of this that everybody seems to be overlooking. Basically you want a double-wishbone or 5link for the best grip. So the chance of winning the lottery is figuring out how many possible guesses there can be ... not if the one you chose is right or wrong. I feel the correct information on this topic is long overdue. One thing you said in your original post – “All I want to say is that Porsche designer themselves know that 911 is not that perfect and they are trying to alter weight distribution themselves.” – I think you are going to have to show me where they admitted to this. Tyres always will work less efficient when loaded unevenly. When Porsche built an ultimate supercar (carrera GT) they put the engine in the middle, not behind rear axle. Nothing out of a hundred is zero %. Many of these cars handled very badly. This would mean that the front end weight is 1176lbs and a rear weight of 1624lbs and lets say that this hypothetical car has a center of gravity height of 15″ above ground and we will say that this car has a Wheelbase of 100″. I would also suggest reading up on suspension tuning to help you analyze the problem and to meet your goals. Likewise, if you could get the bike to have 50% of the weight on the front wheel 50% on the rear DURING extreme braking that would be ideal for braking traction using front-rear brakes (assuming identical tires front/rear). He stated that it helps in breaking and accelerating. All the answers are really interesting, I will have a hard time picking something up for the chosen one (but will upvote all). Hi guys a bit of help would be appreciated we race a grass roots local league called dirt circuit . So that’s why they invented the rear transaxle on their front engine cars, to keep weight balanced, ending up with close to 50/50 in those compromises. However, I love this answer because it addresses the way we, as humans, assimilate information and, more importantly, knowledge. where as the frs has a tendency to act unpredictably over bumps due to the large disparity between front and rear natural frequency. By clicking “Post Your Answer”, you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy. I could have used any proper race car for my example and not a Porsche 911. I regularly race FWD DC2 Integras (62:38) and also a 911 Turbo (38:62, 996 gen). Replacing the core of a planet with a sun, could that be theoretically possible? I guess your right that the position of the engine has nothing to do with better braking… but usually the engine is the heaviest lump of anything in the car and does effect the cars overall weight balance. My BRZ understears badly. The distribution’s peak is off center toward the limit and a tail stretches away from it. Same thing applies during acceleration which is the reason why its so easy to do stoppie’s and wheelie’s. Outdoors, we use quality plastic stands with glass door openings in high traffic senior areas. Goes to show that there is not one specific distribution number that’s perfect. All the data is properly logged, with speeds at entry, apex, exit and overall times. Your chance to win is 100 %. http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-reviews/road-tests/2012-porsche-911-carrera-s. Porsche is moving closer and closer to 50/50 and it is not becoming slower by any means. 911 approaching this distribution too. Your car, like most, is not using the front tires efficiently. Why did he win half as frequently as he thought he would? Porsche aren’t moving the engine to change the weight bias. All the points raised by the author about the benefits of a rear-biased weight distribution on a RWD car are CORRECT. This game is a great tool for exploring probability because with one coin and two players it's quite simple, but if you add players and coins it can get much more complicated to model how frequently someone will win by guessing the number of heads flipped (eventually leading to the need for game theory to describe dominant strategies and counterstrategies). As it was said, most track cars spend most of their time accelerating and braking and the rear weight bias (as it was pointed out) gives advantage in both cases as it makes more efficient use of the tires during the events. why do you think that a rear weight bias gives the tendency to oversteer? When casually discussing with my 13 yo child about probabilities, he told me, there is a 50% chance to win at the lottery, (I roughly estimated $_{7}^{49}\text{C}$ which I think is more or less the lottery here). site design / logo © 2021 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under cc by-sa. There are a number of constraints that i would like to state here. Trump Administration To Roll Back Draconain Obama CAFE Standards. As for the cornering, that’s a different story as the author has pointed out. Rebuttals welcome. – Currently 2nd Year Bachelor of Mechanical Engineering The setup window becomes much smaller with such disproportionate weight balance.Porsche uses good amount of rake to keep the front slightly lower Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Educators Stack Exchange! Definition N50. On the serious side, I am trying to quantify his answer from a mathematical perspective but I believe that the whole premise of his reasoning is wrong (but I am not sure where). That's the probability of the fact to win. How to explain Monty Hall problem when they just don't get it. However, you could simulate a lottery at home, using a die. If the car is RWD (with a LSD and it’s 50-50) then the oversteer is built in the chassis itself! Let’s consider a car with rolling stiffness equal on front and rear. Just thinking a bit more after RACER LUKE’s note: Yes probably when we hear “ideal” 50/50 WD in articles and ads that is usually a BMW-Nissan GTR-Aston Martin or Mercedes C coupe when they try to sell a nice sporty executive car. To be eligible for Big 50 consideration, company information had to be submitted by Sept. 11. It seems like your a little misinformed on some of the dynamics of handling. This is of course one of the ingredients which if it’s there it’s better. A car with minimal power and traction is praised all over the world, because of it’s BALANCE. Second, the laws of physics do not change. This causes mechanical advantage in a turn, which causes oversteer issues. How do I figure out how many monomer configurations I need for my simulation? Is it on original springs? Of course, it is possible to have too much rearward weight distribution which causes inefficient use of the tires and bad handling characteristics. The corvette c7r ( racing version) I believe is a 50/50 distribution car and is a very successful winning le mans multiple times and 2016 weathertech sports car series, 12 hours sebring, Daytona etc. The chance of choosing one of those six right is 1/100. they were both nose heavy but the center diff sorted it out and the things were glued to the ground. But, how that car actually feels in your hands, and how it behaves around corner, is the result of tuning the suspension. $P(\text{"a tie"}) = 1\cdot\frac{1}{2}\cdot\frac{1}{2} = \frac{1}{4}$, $P(\text{"a win"}) = (1\cdot\frac{1}{2}) \vee (1\cdot\frac{1}{2}) - P(\text{"a tie"}) = (1 - (1- \frac{1}{2})(1- \frac{1}{2})) - \frac{1}{4} = \frac{1}{2}$, $P(\text{"both lose"}) = 1\cdot\frac{1}{2}\cdot\frac{1}{2} = \frac{1}{4}$. Then, get a jar of marbles (like, 100+), pick one distinct marble, and say this: "If you pick this magic marble blindfolded in one try, I'll give you this giant candy bar. I'd address the topic from here. A 50:50 is very good. The 50/50 car rotates at the center of the car which makes for a predictable drift but a less efficient rotation and thus a slower speed in a turn, If all you’re saying is that a 50-50 distribution is the most fun, that is your opinion and you have missed the point of my post…. What does “Four selected students are not born in the same months” mean? Okay, so you meant the position of the ball. They just know the rules very well and don’t have to design cars with usable rear legroom. Find the one for yours here. An uneven front-to-rear weight distribution mid-corner means that we are overloading one of the outside tyres more than the other, and thus wasting grip of the less-loaded tyre. The engine’s compact size and flat shape allow it to be mounted mid-ship and extremely low, giving the car a dynamically favourable front-to-rear weight ratio of 53:47 and a low centre of gravity comparable to some exotic supercars. In the context of his answer he's absolutely right so instead of these other answers where you challenge his views ... "explain probability to me" ... you need to focus on understanding the context of his answer. on bicycle we have two brakes, front and back. There is many factors outside of weight distribution that effect the overall handling balance of the car, especially if downforce is involved…. the BRZ/FR-S/GT86 does not have a 50/50 weight distribution. For one, a Motorcycle has a MUCH SHORTER wheelbase and two, it has a much higher center of gravity when the rider is on the bike. In conclusion, due to driving style, this article is both right and wrong. But when Luigi, Sofia and 3 bambini is travelling together it might be a rear biased weight distribution. – understeer = positive stability. They’re working to reduce inertia which is the big drawback to having the engine stick out beyond the wheel axis. If I am incorrect I am also sure he will correct me. There are old muscle cars set up for road racing that have much more weight over the front axle, but if you drove one, you would swear that it handles better than a 50/50 Miata. You say that you have an adjustable suspension kit for your car – I don’t know what this kit includes but general rules of thumb to loosen a car are to add (negative) camber in the front and to stiffen the rear springs and/or roll bars. Now the front tires are being heavily worked during this breaking even and the rear are doing very little work. I knew I would regret it, but not this much…. Although he did not say it I assume the author was not intending to imply that weight in large amounts actually behind the rear axle would help with turning. With no weight in the bed of the truck, its very easy to spin the tires but add weight and its not so easy any more. – Graduate with Bachelor of Aviation Degree But just because one end of a car carries more weight does not at all mean that end needs a stiffer sway bar. Now, play the game with him and ask him to predict how many games he will win by guessing correctly while you guessed wrong (i.e. How to explain the sample space of Monty Hall problem? Weight is the single most important factor in developing this car – … What series was it designed for? So instead of dividing 100% by 2, you should divide it by 10 to get a 10% chance of winning. a light rear has a propensity to oversteer on the throttle. I’m now not so sure as to how to set this suspension up. Maybe engine layout in a racing application is also the result of practicality than simply weight distribution. The engineers are the ones that design and change certain aspects of the car (tires, suspension, aero, etc) in order to make the car more “balanced”. He stated that it helps in breaking and accelerating. Magle Chemoswed is pleased to announce that PharmaCept GmbH has today confirmed the expanded distribution of the medical device EmboCept® S DSM 50 µm based on the Magle Chemoswed technology platform into the Nordic region. Is it normal to need to replace my brakes every few months? We (us bicyclers) never use the front brake except for emergencies. As to the replies above asserting that a 50-50 weight balance is optimal, I have a 1990 magazine article comparing fast cheap cars cornering speeds. If your son is not Donald Duck's super-lucky cousin - whose name I cannot recall - then you will give him some food for thought. The radius of each conductor is 1.6 cm.… The BRZ understeers the Miata really didn’t. This logic is flawed. I’m sitting g in a BRZ. I am also not ragging on your GT86 which I’m sure is a fine handling car. Trail brake, mid to late turn in. 50/50 is a common default whenever there is a sense of uncertainty. for a street car, the closer to 50/50, the better and is really why Porsche is trying to push the engine forward (Per is right here too though in that its also to lower the Inertia) . The examples that you’re trying to give with rear weight biased racing- or even supercars are reduntant, because those cars are not meant to lose traction (ever). Maybe I missed it, but I haven’t seen any discussion of driver weight/position. There seems to be more confusion over weight distribution than any other concept of automotive performance. Bear in mind that a static weight distribution of 50/50 will change dramatically from power on/off, braking. What is the probability that you will win this bet? Please show me the original quote. Now let’s test braking traction. And if say, I had to drive an 8 hour enduro single handed, then a FWD option would start to look pretty attractive as it is hard to sustain the level of concentration needed to keep a car like a 911 Turbo or a mid-engined car on the limit and out of trouble for that sort of duration. The Porsche has weight behind the rear tires. Or, imagine a lottery with 100 tickets, of which only one was a winner. There are old muscle cars set up for road racing that have much more weight over the front axle, but if you drove one, you would swear that it handles better than a 50/50 Miata. on corner like this having slightly more load on front like 45-55 is much better than 40-60. NORMAL DISTRIBUTION EXAMPLES:a)µ=50,σ=4Find area between 46 and 5046µ= 50z=( 46-50 )/4=- 4 / 4=- 1A = .3413OR34.13 %b)µ=50,σ=4Find area between 50 and 60µ= 5060z=( 60-50 )/4=10 / 4=2.5A = .4938OR49.38 %6/3/2017 08:19:00 … A rear bias makes a car rotate better. Why is there room to allow for riding a bike on Shabbat, but not playing a musical instrument? All other answers approach this from doing a different experiment, but that case it's all about explaining how those other events are similar instead of focusing on the lottery). "There are two outcomes, therefore it is 50/50" assumes that the outcomes follow a uniform distribution (and that is in fact the assumption of the Principle of Insufficient Reason). That is making the car easier to turn.). The better you can balance a car the faster it goes in a turn. If the car is RWD (with a LSD and it’s 50-50) then the oversteer is built in the chassis itself! What seems like a sweet deal at first will quickly turn into a no-win situation. It’s slightly off topic but having any given weight distribution and wheelbase combination with more weight centralised near the centre of gravity is always better for faster cornering versus having the same WD and more mass built far away from the middle of the car. Every car has a center of rotation, Can anyone guess where this is on a rear bias car? The original poster talks about acceleration out of the corners but does not talk about lateral G forces which the heavy rear is unable to handle and loses grip. It seems that in the context of the right answer, from an outside point of view, he's using the principle of insufficient reason; he's simply made a logical error solving the right question. Pepper him with a couple examples like that. A 50/50WD MAINTAINS that 50/50WD under neutral, steady-state cornering. Because of this, its hard to look at a street car, especially one as mass produced as a Carrera, and determine why they made a change. To add braking to the front? Now, what is the probability you will choose correctly?" Is it possible to make modern power with a gen 1 small block chevy? If you do decide to engage him, you could do so by suggesting that if he really thinks it's 50-50, that you'll take the opposite side of the bet for 2:1 odds. Do I really need to loose 10 lbs and scoot my seat up to achieve cornering nirvana? Say that a player wins if they guess right the next outcome. no: either you win, or you don't. In closing don’t setup your car based on advice from people who may not know anything about physics at all. Tire traction is directly proportional to the vertical load on the tire (i.e., a tires traction is directly proportional to the weight that is on it). Your son said either you win, or you don't which means he's seeing two possible outcomes and then dividing 100% by 2. Regardless of whether he "wins", tell him to put his piece back in the bag, then mix up the contents of the bag and have him try again. I had a Miata before this. Or how the weight is distributed in general. Netgear R6080 AC1000 Router throttling internet speeds to 100Mbps. guy brought it up, yes most cars have larger front brakes then rears cause they do more work and thus generate more heat BUT this is not always the case. Only those not clever enough to do the math for themselves will argue that 50/50 is always the ideal and that this is why the mazda miata is such a nice car. Perfect distribution is somewhere around 45-55 rear, with dampers, springs, anti-rolls and camber all tuned accordingly after the distribution is correct. You know, many formula cars that are not as heavily regulated have a ballast that can be moved to better suit the track. If you're looking for balance of weight, power, etc, get a Miata. Probably religious. To make cars predictable in turn-in you need aggressive rear wing BUT that same rear wing gets in way while putting power (remember to get maximum output drivers get on power even before steering wheel is straight) And this problem is even more apparent in long turns where drivers needs to stay on power to maintain max cornering speeds (Gs) I’m moving the battery to the front for the very same reason, this is how i found your article. This post is old and I’m late to the party here but would appreciate a response…. Are there situations where chance is not 50-50? Any ideas? The only way out of a turn in any car is to lay the gas down to get traction and rear weight distribution…fast. This makes for very long front ends and small cockpits with cramped foot wells. The difference is, is how the suspension is tuned. Humans are guided by intuition and emotions for most of our lives, but when it comes to probablities, we really need to manage and ignore our lifelong bias to intuition and emotion, something that is very difficult to do. Reddit gives you the best of the internet in one place. Problem is that there isn’t much at the back, other than a solid rear axle (with diff) and the fuel tank, while my leaf spring are also quite light, as they have 5 leaves not 9. Those cars did not ratio the tires to the weight distribution, nor were wide tires even available at that time. These 3 characteristics translate into the steering stability of a car when it loses traction mid-corner. Winning the lottery is far more exciting than the concept of wasting money on the ticket. A person in this situation literally doesn't understand the "count equally likely outcomes" clause. But Porsche wanted the two small rear seats in the 911. Can I write my signature in my conlang's script? Just to clarify a few misunderstandings on the part of many posters here…. I am relatively sure that my suspension, and traction control systems are not set up even remotely well for the automatic. Of course a well tuned car with more front weight can have better grip than the miata but it probably won’t be better than a cup car miata unless it uses an effective aerodynamic body kit (like i.e. What does that suggest for the probability of any one ticket being a winner? I’ve been reading car mags for quite a few decades now, and have watched more Top Gear episodes than I’d care to admit to so I understand that 50:50 is ‘received wisdom’ and the most comfortable for commuting. With few exceptions, street cars are generally tuned to have understeer regardless of their weight distribution – they are just safer that way… I guess this would raise the question: Optimal for what? He's right because the chance of you EVALUATING if that ticket is the right ticket is 50/50 ... 1/2 ... one half. The Principle is not applicable in this situation, since we do know how many winning tickets there are in the lottery, and how many tickets are possible. Optimal weight distro is 40/60 for accelerating AND braking, but I guess he knows more than multi million dollar race teams. ", (if he still GENUINELY insists to 50% it would even worth price of 10 tickets for me to buy together than discuss why 5 of them was not winning. a balanced weight distribution would do neither as it would lose traction at the front and rear equally. Most FR cars are close, but neither the 350z nor the G35 have a 50/50 distribution. My BRZ understears badly. I did some moda this summer that reduced the weight about 200# maybe from the mid section to front. Edit: yet another attempt to get into a non-mathematical mind: It's a banana or it's not a banana. 50 Plus Market Facts & Distribution Info; Community Partnerships; Distribution Area; Multiple Solutions; Online Specifications; Print Specifications; Video Solutions; Submissions . I believe this to be a myth. Better corner entry: Cars with a rear weight bias will steer quicker and have a natural tendency to oversteer. This is ideal for my driving style, as I like to brake early, turn in early, and start the car rotating, and power through the corner. And as this is not a school environment when teacher has the truth and shares it with the student, I'd take the approach to try to understand him through questions: What he said was more like an invitation for discussion about the concept of "winning or not, as a single event". The general rule of thumb when it comes to reducing oversteer is to soften the rear suspension or stiffen the front (which in effect makes the rear proportionally softer). If Sofia is fat you might want to put the battery on the drive side. They play by the rules of physics like anyone else. Sports cars tend to have the diff in the back of course, which shifts some of the weight back, but in essence most real world cars are naturally weight-biased in the front. If they would fit a brake system the same size at the back, the rider would have a really hard time not locking the rear wheel under heavy braking. The less weight that is transferred, the more evenly loaded the tires are and the more traction the car can get from the tires. What he said was more like an invitation for discussion about the concept of "winning or not, as a single event". How many tickets do you have to buy to have a 50 % chance? Have him see that there are tons of blue pieces and only 1 red piece. Is the race about who has the fastest car? ;). He can enumerate the total number of pairs he has to win against: every choice (3) multiplied by the number of pairs to compare for a choice (2). This is because the rear ties will be overloaded while the fronts are not being used to their potential. Now let’s talk cornering at steady speed: of course 50-50 is best for a bike or car assuming tires are identical. Is there a way of defining infinity so that it both meets the criterion of being a number as well as being greater than any real number? So we have bigger difference on rear tyres vertical load than on fronts. Another answer suggested illustrating this with dice, and that could be one way: use dice, or even just a coin, to figure out the frequencies of different events. Bika, I have already covered in the post the older Porsche models which are widely known to be a handful. The engineers make these cars rear-biased so improve acceleration. Theoretical/academical question - Is it possible to simulate, e.g., a (unicode) LuaTeX engine on an 8-bit Knuth TeX engine? "I'm thinking of a number, a digit, between 0 and 9, guess what it is, at first you're 50/50 of being right or wrong" - what you refer here is Principle of insufficient reason already explained in another answer.
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